This article is for informational purposes only. Suthenboy is not a credentialed expert. Do not attempt any of these activities without first consulting an expert or a manual published by accredited experts or manufacturers.
Last time I hit the high points of beginning reloading and briefly discussed the different style of presses and other equipment. The presses are useless without dies specific to the cartridge that you intend to reload. Let’s talk about dies.
There are two basic style cartridges: straight walled cases and cases with shoulders on them. Because of the different shape, properties of brass and steel we end up with two different kinds of dies: tool steel and carbide steel.
Carbide steel is extremely hard making it prohibitively expensive to machine a cavity in the die to fit shouldered cases. You can get such a critter but when you see the price tag you will be purchasing tool steel dies. Because tool steel is not nearly as hard and kind of rubbery lubrication is requied to avoid having a brass case stick inside the die. These can be very difficult to remove and the die may be damaged in the process. This adds two extra steps to the reloading process: lubrication and subsequent cleaning of the cases.
Dies for straight walled cases are usually fitted with a carbide steel liner. Because they are so hard and highly polished straight walled brass cases do not stick and slide right out with a polished surface. This greatly adds to the convinience of sizing spent cases back to size specifications. Always get carbide dies for straight walled cases.
Of the manufacturers I prefer Lee Precision dies. Dies are full length threaded on the outside in 7/8×14 so that it screws into the press. This is pretty universal. There is a lock ring that rides on the outside of the die to set it firmly in the press. Lee is the only manufacturer that uses an easily replacable rubber O-ring to tension that lock ring. The other manufacturers use a set screw in the lock ring. That tiny set screw can become frozen and difficult to remove. It also sets against the 7/8×14 threads on the outside of the die and can damage them. Also, Lee dies are of high quality, low cost and combine several operations in single dies. Because some people prefer other brand dies but want the Lee style lock ring Lee will happily sell you as many of their lock rings as you wish to buy.
All of the manufacturers produce high quality dies and I own at least one set from all of them. There is one more type of die worth noting. These are high-precision dies aimed at the long range rifle shooter. These allow for more precise sizing and seating of bullets, something we will discuss in a later article. The stand-outs are the Redding and Forster dies.
If you are getting into benchrest shooting you would definitely want to shell out the bucks for some of these. I don’t have any because the dies I already have make ammunition that is more accurate than I can shoot anyway.
This is a highly technical, tedious subject that is impossible to write about with inspiration. I will try to include as many tips and tricks I have learned over the years that you can’t find in any book so that those who intend to start reloading will be saved the time and trouble of learning on their own. I hope there are enough gun nerds around here that some will slog their way through and any other reloaders out there please add your tips in the comments.
Don’t forget there is such a thing as too much lube: greases and oils are essentially incompressible, so some guys have managed to crush a shouldered cartridge.
wow…that’s on topic, so: first!
The next article is on the different steps and lubrication is covered. Over lubrication is hit on.
Jesse hardest hit..
I represent that!
yeah too much lube and there is no friction so you don’t feel anything
Unless you are dealing with a breach loader… in which case you can never have too much lube…..
Sounds erotic.
Maybe include some gun porn then.
I think there’s enough of us. Thanks for taking the time to write this series.
When I wrote these I didn’t realize how many there are here. I thought I might bore y’all to death. Well if y’all like these you will love the next one. It is rather long and tedious, covers all of the steps in detail.
Don’t forget crimp dies. Nobody wants bullets jumping the case. These are of special importance in lever, pump and semi-auto rifles as well as handguns.
Now that you mention that I neglected to discuss the difference between roll and factory crimp dies in the next article.
A roll crimp is just what it sounds like – the mouth of the case is rolled inward to grip the bullet. This works well with bullets that have a crimping groove or a cannelure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannelure
A factory crimp works well with bullets without a cannelure. Again, Lee makes the best ones. It simply presses the mouth of the case against the bullet in four places like fingers grabbing the bullet.
I prefer a roll crimp as it is more secure. As Animal says heavy recoil causes a gun to move backward suddenly and if your bullets aren’t firmly seated in the case an object at rest (a heavy bullet) tends to stay at rest so after a couple of shots your unfired bullets can start creeping out of their cases. A firm roll crimp solves that problem.
Yup, I’m a fan of Lee dies myself. My .338 came with a set of Redding dies but all my others are Lees.
Redding is pretty hard to beat for quality, Lee hard to beat for ease of use. You cant go wrong either way.
I will be in Chicago on Wednesday, September 12 and Thursday, September 13, staying at the Loews Hotel downtown. Its a business trip, but I can get away in the evenings if any Glibs want to do a meetup. I’m open to suggestions on where, as long as its a reasonable Uber from the hotel. I’ll buy a round (or two, if its a small enough group). Let me know if there is any interest, and we’ll get something organized.
We’d love to meet you, but school nights can be tough to get downtown. (We are a 90 minute train ride out.)
Keep us apprised as things develop, please. Email: sp at this website.
Well, dang. 90 minutes is a lot. I’ll keep you posted.
Well, after chatting offline with OMWC and Swiss, we might have a plan!
Excellent article, Suthen
I’ve been reloading a long time, I have never read an explanation as good as yours of the differences between the dies (carbide and tool steel). Excellent explanation. Also the differences between the manufacturers dies. I am mostly an RCBS guy but have a few of the others. Never had case stuck but dented shoulders from over lube, yep. A few with the shoulder a little low but if rimmed headspaced I’ll load them light and blow out the shoulder.
I included the bit about the Lee lock rings for a good reason. Try them, you will never go back to lock rings with a set screw. I replaced all of mine which amounted to over 100. I hate those cussed set screws.
Have gun, will slog.
Keep them coming.
I was considering writing one on accurizing rifle ammo. Fire forming, which Fourscore mentions above is part of that.
Sometimes, I need to understand how stuff is done just so that I can convince myself that I don’t really want to start a new hobby. 😉
By ammo, shoot guy, clean it, put it away, then go make mead.
Damn, Kinnath you’re not supposed to admit it like that.
I have a long list of hobbies that I have successfully not started. Occasionally, I fail and start a new one.
I can relate. As you can see below I’m struggling with expanding my firearms hobby into the (utterly abominable) world of NFA ownership. Lots and lots of headache and expense to own a rifle with a barrel a few inches shorter than the one I have already and/or an appliance that reduces the sound my gun makes by about 30 dB. I think I may have just talked myself out of it.
I looked into SBRs last year as we were investigating out first pistols. In the end, I could figure out any usage that would justify getting one. We have nice pistols now. Next on the list is a shotgun, then a rifle of some sort. Then reloading . . . NO . . . . NO . . . I WILL NOT FUCKING RELOAD . . . . well, maybe some time much later.
I meant the part about shooting a guy.
It’s even funnier when he doesn’t notice the typo.
That one was awesome wasn’t it.
Completely OT: but does anyone have the code for the Glibs discord? I took a bit of a hiatus for a while but am ready to return.
https://discord.gg/DN8XAQ2
Edit Fairy requested (although you can paste and cut).
I’m on my super secret burner phone and it doesn’t always play well with html. (Or any code.)
Appreciate it SP. Also, I know I rarely comment on the proper site, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate all the hard work you do to maleness this place great. Thank you!
It’s not male enough, if you ask me.
STEVE SMITH MALE ENOUGH FOR ALL OF YOU.
the hard work you do to maleness this place great
Shitlord CONFIRMED.
Wait, there’s a secret Glib back channel? I did not know this. This must be where all the MLWs hang out.
It’s a veritable Girls Gone Wild video.
I bet there are unicorns. Are they riding unicorns?
See HM’s late night post yesterday for illustration.
I am glad I did not click on that at work!
STEVE SMITH MODERATOR ON GLIB BACK CHANNEL. BY BACK CHANNEL…
What Steve Smith does on discord is anything but moderate
You should see him on Twitter.
I’m going to post this one more time since this is an actual gun post and, therefore, on topic. Then I promise I’ll shut up about it.
I’m thinking of wading into the morass of NFA ownership. I’m looking at a silencer and/or an SBR.
– Should I do a trust?
– Can I put both a silencer and an SBR on the same trust?
– Are you really effectively signing away your 4A rights (not that they mean much anyway) by getting into this?
– Can the ATF inspect my home at will without warning?
Any other information would be appreciated.
There is no such thing as a silencer. There are suppressors but no silencers. They are only moderately effective, not worth the money or exposure to govt. thugs. Spend your money on a new gun.
Just my 2c worth.
Seconded.
I’m just using the government’s own terminology (stupid as it is).
And good advice. The SBR is actually what’s more interesting to me, but it’s a lot of shit to go through for what amounts to a novelty.
Specifically this:
http://www.capitolarmory.com/colt-m4-commando-le6933-11-5-sbr.html
Suppressors can also dramatically affect accuracy.
And short barrels dramatically influence velocity.
My go-to carry gun in the woods is a Ruger Vaquero in 45LC with a 7.5″ barrel.
Occasionally Blackhawk 6″ barrel in 41mag or 44 mag.
I have a Winchester ’94 in 44mag with an extra long barrel – 24″ – it gets 300fps more than the pistols….that aint nothing to sneeze at.
Interesting. How does that work? The gas is asymmetrically vented and causes unpredictable variations in the trajectory?
A properly fitted suppressor will have negligible effects on accuracy, but a poor one can mess things up pretty bad. A suppressor, as anything else that changes the effective length of the barrel, will change the barrel harmonics. Normally this isn’t something you’d notice unless the suppressor is the exact length to royally mess them up and place the crown at the apex of a peak or trough; conversely, a suppressor can be the correct length to cancel the harmonics as well, increasing the accuracy. This will still be pretty unnoticeable at average ranges though, and harmonics will change with ammunition, so unless you’re at the point where you are custom reloading to get the absolute best out of your gun, harmonics aren’t anything to worry about. If it is badly fitted or produced, however, you could get baffle strikes where the bullet physically contracts part of the suppressor, crown warping which will throw off your transitional ballistics, and over-gassing, which can cause problems for semi and fully automatics.
If you have the suppressor installed by a competent gunsmith and the suppressor is of decent quality, you shouldn’t have anything to worry about accuracy wise unless you’re at a competition level.
The suppressors are made with symmetrical venting in mind but it doesnt always work out that way. You have to reset the sights but sometimes the range of the sight settings isnt wide enough.
Try this with a bolt action – put the gun in a vise and put the sights on a bullseye. Take the bolt out and look down the bore. You will notice that the bore is not pointed at the spot you sighted on. It will be low. That is because the instant the bullet leaves the case and starts down the bore it causes recoil. when the bullet leaves the end of the barrel there has already been a fair amount of recoil and the barrel has risen.
The sights are set to account for that so that the instant the bullet leaves the barrel the bore has risen to the spot you sighted on. This is much more dramatic in pistols than rifles, obviously.
A suppressor reduces recoil, or can depending on the gun, and your sights may or may not be able to compensate for that.
Suppressors are often filled with steel wool. That wool deteriorates with each shot. That changes the way the gases are vented. Putting one of those on your gun changes a lot of variables. I cant think of a single good reason to have one.
However, If you decide to get one let us know how it goes….and how much it costs.
Done a little research on the cost already. The can I was looking at was ~700 bucks by itself. The tax stamp is 200, setting up the gun trust is ~150 and the cost to have a gunsmith install it properly would be ~100 or so. Plus the 6 month wait.
So 1100-1200 bucks give or take. At that point, the SBR seems like the better investment (in terms of both fun/utility and resale), but neither option is particularly attractive unless you just have money to burn.
Or, like you said, just buy one or two new guns and not have to go through the NFA bullshit.
The only way this can happen is if you get a baffle strike, which is usually caused by improper installation. Threading the barrel out of center with the bore, hackery like that.
Many PRS competitors use silencers on their match rifles. That wouldn’t happen if silencers degraded accuracy.
Also, no one has manufactured a commercial silencer with steel wool since WWII. There have been a few experimental cans using thin silicone or Teflon wipes, but 99% of commercial silencers have a baffle stack or monolithic core machined out of steel, aluminum, titanium, or Stellite. Which means they’ll last pretty much forever unless abused.
My understanding is essentially that if you have other people in your home and don’t want to have to lock your NFA stuff in a safe that only you can access, a trust is a must. Downside is that now you have to put everyone else on the trust. Upside is that once you have the trust, everything can go on that trust. You don’t have to make a new trust for each item.
And you don’t give up any 4A rights beyond the absurdly invasive initial process. You have to alert the ATF whenever you take it out of state (suppressors only require that you tell the ATF, everything else requires their permission), but they are not allowed to just inspect your home without a warrant.
Really, it comes down to how much you want a suppressor or something with a short barrel. I haven’t found sound moderation to be worth going through the whole process, and with “pistol braces”, you can get what is effectively an SBR without any of the NFA BS.
Unless you’re going to use a subsonic ammunition a suppressor is fairly worthless. There aren’t many rifle rounds that are subsonic; you’re pretty much limited to specific .22 lr rounds.
If you want to take what you’ve learned in Suthen’s posts a step further and get into wild catting, there are some really nice subsonic rifle rounds to be made, but that’s a whole ‘nother ball game. Unless you really want a suppressed rifle I’d stick to other NFA items like SBRs.
subsonic .300blk gets good reviews.
I’ve seen subsonic .308, also.
Forgot about 300 blackout, that is supposed to be good. I haven’t heard of subsonic 308 before, I’ll have to check it out.
Yes, the 300 Blackout was made specifically for subsonic rounds in a rifle with a suppressor.
Unless you live in a Steven Segal movie it is worthless.
Get a 30-06 or go balls out like RC and rock it with 300 Win Mag.
First things first, ‘silencer’ is the correct name according to Hiram Maxim, who invented them.
I didn’t do a trust for my cans, but most of my friends did. It might be worth at least talking to a lawyer about setting one up.
Yes, you can put any number of NFA goodies on a single trust.
No, and no.
Do you have any other NFA stuff besides the cans?
Not at present, but a couple of SBR AR lowers are on the shopping list.
That Capitol Armory LE6933 is cute as hell. I have an enduring love for 11-1/2″ ARs…
I have a 300 blk pistol with sandman Ti suppressor as my HD gun. 220 grains x 30 rounds and hearing safe. Max range I’ll be shooting is 50 meters. If I was doing it again I would get 9mm. Cheaper ammo.
More information on the Cake guy.
These kinds of tactics will backfire, I guarantee it. This is a window into the world progs want in which no one is left alone to their own individual thoughts, omnipotent bureaucratic scolds carry out vendettas against individuals and mere coexistence with others is not acceptable.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/08/colorado-goes-after-masterpiece-cakeshop-again-this-time-over-gender-transition-cake/
Perusing through twatter on this subject reveals even many lefties condemning this. If the CCC, an abomination in its own right, gets smacked down I would be thrilled. Even more thrilled if this sank it completely, but that’s wishful thinking. From the complaint the cake shop:
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/MasterpieceCakeshopComplaint.pdf
“261. That person asked for the following custom cake: “I’m thinking a three-tiered white cake. Cheesecake frosting. And the topper should be a large figure of Satan, licking a 9” black Dildo. I would like the dildo to be an actual working model, that can be turned on before we unveil the cake. I can provide it for you if you don’t have the means to procure one yourself.”
First off, I actually have difficulty thinking of any cake shop that would make such a cake, but more than that this is just malicious harassment. How far does “public accommodation” go? If they asked the baker to show up naked and fellate someone wearing a Mephistopheles costume while shitting on the cake and he refused is that “discrimination”? Rhetorical question: is he a slave simply because he has a business open to the public? Obviously he is in the eyes of progs. Let’s hope that the courts still have enough sense to disagree.
I think they would be happy if they just ran him out of business as revenge. I think the goal is to make him throw up his hands and say, “Okay, I’m done. You win.”
^^^THIS^^^
They’ll be placated if he’s run out of business. They’d be ecstatic if he hangs himself.
One less shitlord. Omelet, eggs, ends, means. You know how it goes.
I still argue that the right to free association means that “Public Accommodation” Laws are unconsititional on their face. Someone can decline to do business with, hire, fire, promote, or demote for whatever reason they damn well please so long as they are not acting as an agent of the government at the time. The only group which cannot discriminate to their heart’s content is the government.
Nevermind that this does not reflect what is, just what the law says should be. (Using the order of precedence from Constitution on down to resolve conflicts)
I think everyone here agrees, but the vast majority of the electorate would suffer cranial implosion upon hearing that.
Absolutely. I’m just playing devil’s advocate and adopting the progs’ legal foundation for the complaint. You’re right in that Public Accommodation laws *are* unconstitutional; however, if our dumbass courts are going to permit them, I’m curious how far they think they go.
The only group which cannot discriminate to their heart’s content is the government.
I’ve argued with people that the 14th says the government must provide a “one size fits all solution” for everything it does. Therefore, special education programs are unconstitutional. You can’t spend more money on some kids than others just because the “one size” doesn’t fit them well.
But they’re part of the magical protected victim class that changes and morphs depending on who happens to be higher on the prog victimhood hierarchy at that particular second. Because reasons. And shut up you racist, bigoted piece of human garbage.
You forgot misogynist.
More to the point. “Equal Protection” prohibits “Protect Classes”.
I”m a pure 9A guy: you are free to do EVERYTHING except damage me.
We need to be careful about enumerating rights and hanging our hats on them. I don’t disagree with you fundamentally, but there’s this very broken idea in the world that rights come from the constitution or government or rulings. “Free Association” is like “privacy” to folks like that: they’re looking for a precedent, language.
Fuck that. Every law except “don’t damage that dude” is unconstitutional.
I’m pretty sure we have a higher chance of reaching my read than yours.
no doubt
this is the site of hopeless ideals, so no shame in being too pure
My opinion on 2A isn’t very popular here, either: when you get to the right place the wrong way, it doesn’t really help in the long run
If your statement RE: the 9th above is accurate, wouldn’t that already have subsumed the 2nd?
These are enumerated fenceposts regarding the outer bounds of government authority for good reason, because vagueness works in favor of those seeking to push the envelope.
yes sir, 9A subsumes 2A; you might argue it subsumes 1A
If the constitution is a plan for a government, then all statements of rights are obviously just negotiating chits to allay the fears of the smaller states, not remotely fundamental.
If the constitution is a list of rights, it’s never long enough. If the constitution is a list of constraints on government, it is never long enough.
So, clearly, the constitution is just a recipe for government with a bit of drama reduction tagged on…which I’m arguing has caused all the other “rights” problems ever since. We got on the wrong road and we’ve stayed there.
This is only my logic; I’m no expert or historian; I’m not trying to drive off allies. But if there is a good place to point out and prefer first principles, I hope it’s Glib.
As long as we’re being forced to bake a cake, here’s a silly example cake recipe:
A/ eggs
B/ flour
C/ sugar
1A: you can whistle any song you like while you bake your cake
2A: just because the feds have a 20 gallon mixer doesn’t mean that your state can’t have a 5 gallon mixer
9A: just ignore 1A and 2A…they have nothing to do with baking cakes….we could never come up with all the cool whistling and appliance rights that are natural or god-given……[Graham Chapman storms in wearing RAF uniform: “right! stop that! this scene is getting entirely too silly!]
10A: Our recipe doesn’t speak to icing or decoration; your state government will need to boss you around in that wise.
To me the other amendments in the BoR are pretty silly once you digest 9A: it really says it all, even if it says nothing.
You don’t really need anything beyond the NAP…
EXCEPT what the definition of “aggression” is.
That’s when shit gets real.
I don’t care if they are asking for a fully functional fusion reactor on top. Bake the fucking cake!
*loads gun and points it at bakers head*
now!
Mojeaux is dead on – this is just vengeance.
Oh but I would love to be a judge in that case.
(Blurring squiggly view and harp Music)
CCRC Attorney: ….And that, Your Honor, is why the defendant must be held responsible for baking the Satanic Cake!
Judge WDalasio: Interesting position. I’m inclined to agree with you. On a condition. I’m going to issue the defendant full legal and financial indemnity for the consequence of consuming that cake. After the defendant bakes said cake, I’m going to send the Court Deputies to round up you, the plaintiff and each and every member of the Commission. And I can assure you, either that cake, or several bullets will be in your stomachs. Now, are you really sure you want to proceed with this case?
+1 cyanide cake
You really only ever have to bake just one.
WHATABOUTISM!!!!!!!
Mojeaux is dead on – this is just vengeance. They are attempting to ruin his business by saddling him with immense legal fees from defending himself from bullshit charges like these.
The state can always tax the productive more for cash to use to nickel and dime their enemies into poverty…
Shit like this is why I am against a state that has no serious mechanism to punish these sorts of abuses of power. And believe me nothing is more vengeful than a pissed off leftist that has not gotten their way.
Not a woman scorned? What a woman leftist scorned?
TIWTANFL.
Or, in this case, a transwoman leftist scorned
Is the transness proved?
“sure, i’ll bake that cake. it will cost you $1 million. up front.”
if any of the petitioners are the same as brought the previous lawsuit, then tag their asses with vexatious litigant. and fuck them for the rest of their lives.
with Kennedy to be possibly replaced by Kavanaugh, this is not going to work out as planned.
This is disgusting. Leftists, as usual, going “too far” (I mean, even for the general public). But I’m glad to see this – it can only backfire, assuming the media don’t bury it.
The thing that I can never get my head around is, who reacts to something this way?? If I wanted, say, a naked lady cake for a bachelor party and the baker tells me “No, I won’t make that”, I would grumble and then I’d call another baker. What kind of a monster calls a lawyer and starts a lawsuit over a fucking cake??
A lawyer
A very broken individual or lawyer covers it
Someone with an agenda who knew all along that the baker would refuse and planned to sue them before ever walking into the shop.
Bitch set me up!
Marion is that you?
I bet this was staged so they could push the lawsuit. I wonder how many attempts were made to get this guy for not properly rolling over and showing the leftists the proper difference.
I would bet a year’s salary it was a setup. The complaint says he’s been flooded with outrageous requests, the one above being just one example. I hope this ends with such an embarrassing loss to progs in the Supreme Court (with Kavanaugh) that they are loath to try this shit again for a long time.
It was a setup, the timing of the call that produced the complaint corresponded with the court calendar in more than a coincidental manner. (Along with the actions of the CCC)
I was talking about the original gay wedding cake. As you said, this current case is blatantly a campaign of making ever more ridiculous cake requests to try and build a case against this guy.
Notice no one ever goes after a Muslim cake shop for refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding. Do we think,
a) “Oh, asking THEM is racist because that’s their belief and we respect their beliefs”? Or do we think,
b) “Those are their belief and those motherfuckers would kill me for insulting their beliefs”?
Progs tell themselves A, but deep down inside know it’s B and they’re cowards.
B
So all that needs to happen for this to stop if for several hundred Evangelical Christians run into prog strongholds like Planned Parenthood, LGBTQ resource centers, Democrat campaign offices, etc. wearing suicide vests and blow themselves up.
Well, when you want to stop a bully…
Seriously, what needs to happen to these progs is financial ruination, to the point they’re living and shitting on the streets of San Francisco.
It’s not ZARDOZ-level cleansing, but it’d do for a while.
Not quite going after them, but it’s an interesting experiment.
Crouder did it. Our betters pretended not to notice.
Pretty sure that was a setup too.
A spoiled 11-year-old girl trapped inside an adult’s body with so much time on her hands she can throw a big hissy fit.
Sadly, the state, being every child’s baby-daddy, is way too indulgent with its bratty children.
What kind of a monster calls a lawyer and starts a lawsuit over a fucking cake??
this transcunt:
https://www.scardinalaw.com/About/Autumn-Scardina.shtml
On June 26, 2017, the very same day the Supreme Court agreed to take the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, Attorney Autumn Scardina called the cake shop to request a “gender transition” cake. The cake shop declined, so on July 20, 2017, Scardina filed a complaint, with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission:
I believe I was unlawfully discriminated against because of my protectcd class(es) in violation of the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act (CADA). 1.) On or about June 26. 2017, I was denied full and equal enjoyment of a place of public accommodation. Specifically, the Respondent refused to prepare my order for a cake with pink interior and blue exterior, which I disclosed was inttended for the celebration of my transition from male to female. Furthermore. 1hc Respondent indicated to me that to prepare such a cake would be against their religious beliefs. 2.) I believe I was discriminated against because of my protected class(cs).
That is not one of the more convincing trannies I’ve seen. Hell, the guy on the left looks more effeminate.
If I was a Colorado attorney, I’d look into filing an ethics complaint against Mx. Scardina with the State Bar.
In 2008, Autumn moved to Colorado and became an Assistant County Attorney for Adams County
Xe’s a former county attorney. Adams County is basically north and northeast Denver (Thornton, Commerce City, northern Aurora).
would Mxyzptlk have political connections?
My first question, BTW, would be whether xe tried to order the cake from anyone else. If the answer is “no” (as I am sure it is), then we are well on our way to proving the request was a pretext, made in bad faith. My next question would be whether she discussed requesting the cake with anyone beforehand, and if so, who and what the discussion was. If answered honestly, this would undoubtedly reveal that the request was made solely for purposes of generating a complaint – again, bad faith. It might also show that she was effectively acting on behalf of someone else, which raises some ethical questions about whether she should have contacted the baker at all, rather than his attorney.
Do I think any of this would turn into any kind of disciplinary action? No, but the process is the punishment, as they say.
exactly
Q How far did you drive to the cake shop in question?
A 132 miles
Q Weren’t 47 other cake shops more convenient to you?
A How dare you tell me with whom I can associate or what business I can pursue, sir!
The thing is, I’m pretty sure that xe did discuss it with other activists, and in the process undoubtedly gave an opinion on whether and how to go about getting another complaint going. At that point, xe has created an attorney-client relationship, and from then on is acting as an attorney, not just a concerned xitizen. That means everything xe did needs to be within the rules for attorneys, and I bet with a little effort I can come up with two or three plausible violations.
Dean, you’re forgetting the magic, invisible wokitude immunity clause. As long as you’re a prog in good standing and acting “for the greater good” the maximum penalty for anything, up to and including genocide, is a stern finger wagging.
For a look into the minds of those who are mightily conflicted about or in complete support of this harassment, lookie here
And…
Methinks most of these people don’t actually know what goes into “making” a wedding cake, which is not just the making of the cake. Artistic expression is part of it, sure. But wedding cakes don’t get carried to the event, set up, and served by themselves. That’s part of what a bakery does.
You are also forcing someone to attend your wedding who does not want to be there.
That’s just the icing on the cake.
Fundamentally, this is about compulsion and power, nothing else. I wouldn’t lose any sleep if the bureaucrats, apparatchiks, and assorted gadflies involved in this case got their cars torched. They aren’t going to stop. They will continue until all wrongthinkers are forced out of society at the end of a gun.
Correct.
Even when they succeed, they will move the goalposts and create more wrongthinkers.
Or as in the case of the Soviet Union, invent them out of whole cloth.
Until they themselves find they are on the wrong side of the goal. Then off to the camps with them too.
Maybe in the case of a photographer, but florists and bakers are not forced to participate in weddings, that’s really stretching the word a bit. being in proximity to a thing is not participation, and the baker at best is forced to contribute to the reception, not the wedding itself. Of course, they should all have the absolute right to tell any wannabe client to piss off for any reason. I find the ‘I’m being forced to condone something I disagree with’ argument lacking.
I find the ‘I’m being forced to condone something I disagree with’ argument lacking.
Same here, but its really just the mirror image of “tolerance” now meaning “celebration”, rather than “non-interference”. The vast middle ground of “do you what you want, its a free country” is disappearing. If I’m bigoted against anything I don’t celebrate, then I’m condoning anything I don’t object to.
“Christian persecution” fantasies
I don’t think this particular persecution of a Christian is actually a fantasy.
He agreed to follow the laws of the State of Colorado when he chose to open a business here and he’s not doing it.
Well, Colorado does protect religious belief, so I’m thinking he is following Colorado law.
Members of the KKK aren’t a protected class, gay and transgendered people are.
The Klan has the same civil rights as everyone else in this country.
Nazis have the same civil right as everyone else in this country.
The concept of “protected” classes is bullshit and needs to be crushed as soon as possible.
Thank you for making me defend the klan and nazis. It is the highlight of my day.
By the way, you’ve scared me enough that I now have a gun. Cheers.
It’s going to take generations, if it’s going to happen. Personally, I don’t think it will. Too much of the populace has bought into it, hook, line, and sinker.
It’s taken 50 years to get here. Either a revolution happens, and it goes away. Or it’s here for ever.
Note, it is possible that every living being eventually becomes a member one or more protected classes and the system collapses under its own weight. But I wouldn’t count on it.
especially since many peoples solution to the problems created by protected classes is to create even more protected classes.
Yup. I recall that was a major argument at TOS in support of expanding the definition of protected class to include gay people on the way to mandating that states recognize gay marriage.
Naturally, it was immediately followed by a demand that protected classes also include transgenders. And on and on we go.
I was initially skeptical of the claim that it would snowball like it has. But I was wrong.
The problem is you could say this about almost anything. My dentist could consider an excellent fitting and we’ll blended crown he puts on me a work of art, but that doesn’t mean he should be able to refuse to put a crown on a gay man.
He’s half right, kind of. Yes, freedom of expression does not really give anyone the right to refuse to do business with someone. However, his dentist should, indeed be able to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, or for no reason.
The interesting aspect of this is the confliction it generates among most people. There are two opposing positions in this case neither of which your average person can comfortably endorse.
You either believe:
The State can force you to interact with someone against your will.
Or:
The State cannot force you to interact with someone against your will.
Both of those positions have huge implications, that most people are afraid of committing to.
I’ll take: The State cannot force you to interact with someone against your will.
I understand and look forward to consequences of living in such a system.
Just like I said below, the way they reconcile this cognitive dissonance is by creating “protected classes” and then assigning them places on the prog victimhood hierarchy. Muslims are currently above gays on that hierarchy, which is why a Muslim baker can get away with refusing gay people service. Similarly, Muslims are above Jews on the hierarchy, so a Muslim could force a Jewish butcher to make him a ham, but the Jew could not force a Muslim to do it (in spite of them having the same dietary restrictions). When faced with directly contradicting ideas, humans get pretty creative to preserve their sanity, even if the stuff they create is, itself, insane.
Or as in the case of the Supreme Court, duck the question entirely.
“his dentist should, indeed be able to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, or for no reason”
There’s the rub. People are so traumatized from slavery, segregation and Jim Crow, and the accusations of racism that invariably go along with any discussion of them, that they are willing to defend “anti-discrimination” laws and fight tooth and nail to keep them in place. It’s largely bipartisan. People *should* be able to refuse service to anyone, anytime for any reason. “But what about denying service to blacks? Do you want to go back to Jim Crow!?!” Of course not. However, widespread ostracism driving someone who does discriminate out of business isn’t enough, everyone wants governmental regulation saying you can’t do it. People across the political spectrum would agree on that fact. They don’t understand that by admitting that one special case, they open the door to all kinds of this bullshit. Then, to keep it from devolving into outright slavery (ironic isn’t it?) in which I can force someone to do anything I want for me just because they have a business, you have to create “protected classes” and twist yourself into logical pretzels to try and keep the whole thing from falling apart.
Progs are just exploiting a hugely popular legal framework built because of terrible things that happened decades/centuries ago. A legal framework that has no reason to exist anymore but will be with us forever.
I tell people that I would prefer that bigots operated out in the open so that I could make rational choices to avoid them.
Government has no right to discriminate.
Individuals do have the right.
Does that mean some people get to act like assholes? Yes, being an asshole should not be illegal.
“But what about denying service to blacks? Do you want to go back to Jim Crow!?!” Of course not.
Of course not. I strongly oppose laws requiring segregation of the races. The notion that “Jim Crow” refers to people being bigoted, rather than states requiring bigotry, is another symptom of how badly our educational system has failed everyone (except the people cashing its checks).
Ignoring for a second his ignorant analogy, this whole “corporations are evil” nonsense has really gotten out of hand. I think Citizens United is when it really shifted in to high gear. I’m fucking tired of it. Move to Venezuela if corporations are so terrible.
“Workers have to do whatever the fuck we’re told regardless of our beliefs”
Pretty sure that’s not true. If your employer orders you to do something illegal or, according to your genuine and deeply held beliefs, immoral, you don’t have to do it. And you could sue them if they fire you.
Then again, that’s bullshit too since employers should be able to fire someone for any reason. And why the fuck would you want to work for someone who told you to go fuck a pig (for example)?
Yeah, his whole argument is bullshit. It’s apples and oranges. A fucking high school freshman of average intelligence should be able to see that.
Then again, this idiot could be a 7th grader in his mom’s basement, so…
If your employer orders you to do something illegal or, according to your genuine and deeply held beliefs, immoral, you don’t have to do it. And you could sue them if they fire you.
You certainly can’t be required to do anything illegal. You can be asked to do something against your religious beliefs, and of course you are free to quit rather than do it. The anti-discrimination laws prohibit your employer from firing you because you are a Muslim, or a Christian or whatever. I don’t think they require your employer to accommodate your religious beliefs.* I don’t think a Muslim or a Jew could go to, say, a restaurant as either a customer or an employee and require it to be kosher/halal, or require their employer to never schedule them on their holidays or days of worship, etc. If you can’t do the job, I don’t know that it matters why (unless you are disabled, of course, in which case your employer has to accommodate your disability).
*Note: this is not my specialty, but I have never run across it.
Hey Suthen. I love these. I’m unarmed (well, there’s an old.22 somewhere) and have no desire to get into reloading,but I love learning about how things work and finding out the details of various subcultures. Keep it up.
Great article. I’m very interested. I do not reload, but I do take advantage of friends equipment and expertise at reloading. I do a favor for said friend and can expect a standard steel ammo box full of 9mm and or 45ACP.
A Dillon machine make short work of 1000 rdns.
Will you be discussing documentation and experiments on loads, powder, etc?
For our teenage readers who’s fathers are into reloading:
Make sure you cop your dad’s gunpowder in small doses. Don’t get carried away or he’ll catch on.
And avoid metal in your explosives manufacturing. It might be tempting to use a cardboard coat-hanger cross-piece tube as a base and then just bend and crimp the ends with the left over coat hanger wire. I mean, it’s there and it is just going in the garbage….
This is a bad idea. At least, uh, that’s what I heard.
And if you are going to build a dam over a nearby creek out of a couple of felled trees and a crap-ton of mud so you can blow it up…. start a little smaller than you thought you should. Also, just something I heard somewhere and definitely not something that I might have done. Oh, and if you use a cigarette for a delayed fuse, be patient. Because if you start walking over to see what happened and the thing goes off, the rocks and bits of tree flying in your direction can be…. uh…. disconcerting.
An acquaintance blew up a city drainage pipe (under a street) once upon a time with a Coke can, some black powder, and bunch of bolts.
I assume the statue of limitations from 1987 is in effect.
An acquaintance.
Glibs sure have interesting friends.
I’m loving this series Suthen’.! Something I’ve always wanted to get into. My great uncle used to do shotgun shells and I thought that was the coolest thing as a yute.